PDF Rapaille - English

Transcripción

Nº 24 - November 2012
1 Anniversary E"tion
“This is not a
traditional
marketing
research or
study. This is a
different thing.
What we do is
called a
Discovery: we
discover
something that is
there but we
cannot see it.”
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille
Founder and CEO of Archetype Discoveries Worldwide
Interviewed by Fernando Luzio
The complete
v
video and audio
of this interview are
available on our website:
www.luzio.com.br
1
To celebrate the first birthday
of our Program, we went to New
York especially to interview Dr.
Rapaille, the founder, CEO and
chairman of Archetype Discoveries Worldwide.
We have had the opportunity
to work with Dr. Rapaille for two
years, breaking strategic Codes
for companies in USA and
Brazil.
We are also celebrating the
signature of a new agreement
between Luzio Strategy Consulting and Archetype Discoveries
Worldwide, to become again
their affiliated firm in Brazil.
Dr. Gilbert Clotaire Rapaille
is an internationally known
expert in Cultural Archetypes,
Creativity and Innovation who
founded the Archetype Discoveries Worldwide in 1976. Based
in Tuxedo (NYC), Archetype has
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associated offices in Belgium,
China, Turkey, England, Paris,
Mexico, Italy, India, South
Korea, Southeast Asia, Russia
and Brazil.
Dr. Rapaille introduced a
breakthrough concept to the
corporate world: the Culture
Code, which has proved to be a
powerful methodology for more
than half of the Fortune 500
companies, such as Boeing,
L ' O re a l , G e n e r a l M o t o r s,
AT&T, Citibank, Chrysler, Colgate, Fox, Kraft General Foods.
His unique approach to
marketing and strategy combines deep psychoanalysis with a
businessman's attention to practical concerns.
He has written more than 14
books. His last book “The
Culture Code” ranked 9th in the
bestseller list of BusinessWeek
and has been translated into 12
languages – in Korea alone,
“The Culture Code” has sold
more than 250.000 copies. He is
a very much sought-after lecturer
on Creativity, Communication
and Cultural literacy.
Dr. Rapaille's technique and
work are a creative and innovative extension of the work done
by many great thinkers of the
20th century, including Jung in
Psychoanalysis; Laing in Psychiatry; Levi-Strauss and Ruth
Benedict in Anthropology.
His world travels and extensive marketing research on
products, services and brand
archetypes for corporations and
governments, have given him a
fresh perspective on American
and global businesses and the
interaction among the Americas,
CLOTAIRE RAPAILLE November 2012
2
Europe, the Middle East and Asia.
For the past 30 years Dr. Rapaille
has accumulated data, and developed
a powerful process to understand the
golden question: WHY people do
what they do?
Fernando Luzio. Dr. Rapaille,
thank you very much for this unique
opportunity, and we are honored to
interview you at your home. We would
like to start off this interview by asking
you to tell us briefly the story of your
interesting life.
Dr. Rapaille. I started being very
interested while working with autistic
children and studying the way they
learn a language. Some of them have
a difficult time learning any kind of
language, and I was trying to
understand what the mental process to
learn a word was; whatever the word.
I worked in Switzerland with
children who were trying to learn
French, German, and Italian – the
three major languages. And at the
time I made a series of little discoveries
on how the brain functions. My
discovery then was that each time you
learn a word there is a moment of
imprint. There is a moment when you
imprint for the first time what is coffee,
what is love, what is work, what is
anything. And when you imprint you
create a mental reference system that
you should keep using for the rest of
your life.
And while working with these
children, I realized that when they were
from French, Swiss, Italian, or German
origin, they were using different
languages – of course – but at the same
time the whole experience was different.
Suddenly they were discovering a world
through the word.
And I can give you an example: the
difference between the German and the
French regarding “the sun” and “the
moon” – very important elements in a
culture. In France, you learn that the
sun is masculine – le soleil – le soleil is the
Sun King, fortune, it is brilliant and
powerful because in French culture man
is supposed to be like this: brilliant and
dominant. The moon is feminine – la
lune – has a hidden power, but at night it
goes up and down. When you are a little
child you learn about the sun and about
the moon, but you learn more than just
the word “sun” and “moon”; you learn
about all the gender system, differences
between men and women and all these
mental categories without even being
aware of it.
Now, when you are German, there is
a big issue, because the opposite is true:
for the German, the sun is a female –
sonne. And they would say “Of course,
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Dr. Rapaille introduced a breakthrough concept to the corporate
world: the Culture Code, which
has proved to be a powerful
methodology for more than half of
the Fortune 500 companies.
His last book “The Culture
Code” was ranked 9th in the
bestseller list of
BusinessWeek and has been
translated into 12 languages
– in Korea alone, It has sold
more than 250.000 copies.
why do you ask? It is obvious!”. Woman
is the one that shines, she is warm and
makes the children grow, so the sun is
female. And the moon is a man – mond –
because German men are always into
dark and deep things, philosophy…
So my discovery at the time was that
we need to be careful, because the
translation of the word doesn’t mean
anything. If you translate the word sun
from French into German you may lose
significance because there is always a
deeper and more powerful meaning to
the word.
Let me give you an example of a
simple consequence of that. If you want
to sell shampoo in Germany and
France, and you use the sun as a
reference, you trigger a completely
different response in each culture
without being aware of it. That is what
is very key here.
I gave a conference at the University
of Geneva, and one of my students
asked his father to come to my lecture,
he was working for Nestlé and he said
“You know, what you discovered here –
the deep meaning of the first imprint
about the word – might be very useful
for us because we want to sell instant
coffee in Japan and we are not very
successful in trying to get them to switch
from tea to coffee” – which was
obviously not the right strategy, so they
made me an offer I could not refuse and
I went to Japan and discovered the
Japan Code for coffee. Then L’Oreal,
associated with Nestlé, and started to
expand around the world.
I was invited to teach in different
business schools around the world. I
published several books and that is how
it went.
Fernando Luzio. Could you explain
what the Culture Code is?
Dr. Rapaille. In every culture, the
culture pre-organizes the way you deal
with something in that culture. My
definition of culture is: a survival kit
inherited at birth in order to survive. So,
at a certain time in a certain environment and geography and so on, you
need this knowledge in order to survive.
It is transmitted from one generation to
the next and after a while, you don’t
even question it anymore, it doesn’t
matter.
So the first time you learn about
coffee, like for example in Italy, it’s very
different from the first time that you
learn about coffee in America. This is
why in America you drink liters of
coffee everyday and survive, but if it
was Italian brewed coffee I would be
dead at the end of the day. So there is a
very strong difference of the meaning of
coffee in Italy and the meaning of
coffee in America.
There is a first imprint that is
previously organized by the culture, and
when we did this work on coffee in
America we discovered that the first
imprint is not TASTE, the first imprint
is the AROMA. For the American
culture the smell of coffee is very strong,
it is unique and the first imprint of
coffee happens when you are two years
old. The whole culture imprint is of
mother preparing breakfast in the kitchen and the feelings evoked: I am
going to be fed, she loves me, I am home
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and I am safe – all of these words are very powerful and very
positive. But this is the American culture Code for coffee, not
Italian or German.
As a strategy we decided that Folgers should own the
aroma and forget about the taste. Let the competitors deal
with the taste, because the Culture Code for coffee in
America is AROMA, so then everything should be on code
which means that the package, the design (we injected the
aroma on top of it and when you open it, shhhshssh, the
aroma comes out in your face) and all the commercial aspects
should be on code with AROMA.
I told them I never want to see the brand Folgers associated
with somebody drinking coffee – no way! And they were
surprised “But we are selling coffee”, and I said “No, you are
not selling coffee, your are selling the AROMA. Let the
others sell the taste.”.
So this is the definition: the Culture Code is a reference
system (like mother, breakfast, home, safeness and so on)
imprinted at a very early age through the energy of the
emotion that is associated with this reference system, and the
Code is what activates it. So the Code for coffee is AROMA
and AROMA activates all the reference system.
Fernando Luzio. And could you provide us an overview
of the Archetype Discovery process itself and its difference
from a traditional marketing research?
Dr. Rapaille. Sometimes it’s difficult to explain that this is
not a traditional marketing research or study. This is a
different thing. What we do is called a Discovery: we discover something that is there but we cannot see it and we are
not familiar with it.
And how do we do that? We follow the 3 Brains Principle:
we have 3 brains. The first one is the Cortex; the second one
is the Limbic; and the third one is the Reptilian – the very old
part of the brain. And my theory is that the Reptilian always
wins, it doesn’t matter what you do, if you get the reptilian,
boom!
The process is done with groups of people and in three
hour sessions, where we guide them back to the very first time
in their lives that they imprinted through emotion – that’s
what we want to discover. First, in order to do that, we have
to eliminate the Cortex at the first hour – when we let them
speak. We don’t care about what they speak of, because we
don’t believe in what people say. This first hour is like a
purge, a washing out session and when they finish they are
happy because they think they have made a great
contribution – but we don’t learn anything new, there’s
nothing serious in here.
The second hour is more emotional within the Limbic –
where the contradictions are and also the tensions. The best
way for me to explain this world of tension is through my
work around the world about mothers and how they relate to
their children, how they feed them and so on. Around the
world – in China, India, Italy, France, Germany, and Brazil –
mothers tells me “I want my children to grow” and “I don’t
want them to grow”; “I want them to be independent” and “I
don’t want them to be independent”; “Oh, they are so cute
when they are little…”. So there is this tension and every
mother can feel that: she wants her children to grow because
this is a program and at the same time she doesn’t want them
to leave.
When my clients say “We want our customers to love our
products”, I ask them “Why? Do you want your customers to
love your products and never buy them, or do you want your
customers to hate your products and always buy them?”.
There is not an immediate correlation. So the key element
that we want to create with the Code that we discovered is an
intense relationship, because love-hate sometimes is very
powerful and creates long-term relationships. At this second
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hour people get confused, they don’t know what they are
doing anymore, and this is good.
Then at the third hour, they lie down on the floor and we
explain that we want to recreate the same mental activity that
they have when they wake up in the morning. Why? Because
when you wake up in the morning, usually for 5 to 10
minutes, the Cortex is not there yet – it usually arises late for
work in the morning – so there is no control, you are still in
the connection between the Reptilian and the Limbic and
you can still remember your dreams. But if you don’t write
them down or recall them right away, 5 to 10 minutes later
they are gone. And this is the kind of running activity that we
want to recreate at the third hour, which is very unique.
When people are there, lying down on the floor after a
moment of relaxation, things come up in their minds and
they would tell me “Oh, it’s amazing, something came back
that I forgot for 30-40 years ago”. After that, they write down
their first stories, so the document that we get is handwritten.
Then we study the structure, the pattern in all these stories.
We look at “the space in-between”, if you may. Lévi-Strauss,
my professor, used to say that the mother is not a woman, a
mother is a space between a woman and a child – so, no
children, no mother; no mother, no children. It’s “the space
in-between” that you have to understand.
It is very interesting this notion of structure: music is not
made of notes; music is the space between the notes. You can
play different notes in a piano with your left or right hand, or
in different instruments, but the only thing that you must
respect is the space in-between and this is what we
discovered: what is the space in-between the different
elements of those stories? What is “the space in-between”
that creates the unconscious reference system, the
unconscious melody that people use and activate when they
think about the brand, the product, a category, a country?
This is unconscious, so you have to find a process to reveal it,
you cannot see it right away.
There is a truth, a real thing and a very important part of
this methodology: it is anonymous. I have already done a lot
of work on subjects that are very taboo. My first work with
P&G (Procter & Gamble) was on “toilet paper”. Imagine that
you are invited to a focus group session with 20 strangers and
for 2 hours you are going to explain how you use toilet paper!
You don’t get much out of that. People would say “I want it
soft, on sale, thank you very much, can I go now?”. But when
I was doing this work, because of the whole process involved,
what we discovered was absolutely powerful and very
emotional. P&G was amazed: “We never found anything like
that!” – after that I made more than 30 Code Discoveries for
P&G.
Fernando Luzio. We are fascinated with all the Codes
you have already broken; however two of them are very
provocative and insightful for individuals and companies.
Can you share some of your findings on the Codes of Beauty
and Luxury?
Dr. Rapaille. I am going to tell you a bit more than what
you can find in my books, because I have already done more
work on that subject.
Beauty is a very Reptilian thing. We are programmed to
find beautiful what is useful for our Reptilian brain. So even
when we go into Music, Art, Opera and Painting there is
always something there that is very Reptilian.
And I want to give you an example: women’s beauty. Some
research has been done by a couple from India on what is the
most beautiful shape of a woman’s body – every culture is
interested in that! They studied the woman’s body in different
cultures and centuries through sculptures and paintings –
they went back to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc.
They put electrodes in every part of
the body of a group of men and showed
them some pictures of women to find
out which one would make them
excited. They didn’t have to speak, so if
the system makes an IHH sound, it
means they were excited; and if it
makes an OHH sound, it means they
were not excited.
And what they found was a kind of
unconscious and global structure Code
for Beauty. When a woman’s body is
straight, it sounds OHH, meaning that
nobody is excited and as a trigger, as a
message for my Reptilian brain it
doesn’t tell me anything. But if the body
of a woman is like an hour-glass, it
sounds IHH, and all the men get
excited. Why?
First of all, we are not so dumb after
all because we are programmed to find
a woman that gives us more chance for
our genes to reproduce. When a woman
has a straight body, we never even try
that woman, because it means we would
be wasting our time. But when a woman
has an hour-glass body, the message is
“Wow! She is the woman”.
And they found another very
interesting thing: the key trigger is the
relationship ratio between the waist and
the hips, and it has to be 0.7. So if the
ratio is 0.7, it sounds IHH around the
world! Amazing!
And more: the women who have 0.7
ratio, have more children, live longer
and have less cancer. So we are not so
dumb after all! Also very interesting, is
that it is not a question of how fat you
are, because you can be very fat but still
have a ratio of 0.7 and it will sound
IHH. It is not fat, it is fat distribution, it is
a matter of where do you put your fat.
Because of this discovery we can
understand fashion: why the Egyptians
invented the corset 5.000 years ago?
Because the corset was meant to
tighten, to make the waist smaller and
to get 0.7 ratio. Why did the French
invent these dresses with big volume?
Again, to create that dimension.
So it starts making sense, it is not just
by chance, random or accident that a
thing like that happens. It happens
because unconsciously we have a
perception of beauty that is very key.
There are a lot more elements for the
Code of Beauty…
Also, Luxury varies from one culture
to another. For example, in French
culture Luxury should be useless; in
American culture, nothing should be
useless. So in the United States, if you
have a scarf around your neck it’s
because you are afraid to get a cold, so
this is not Luxury. But in France, if you
put a scarf on your shoulders and you
don’t need it – because your shoulders
are not going to get a cold –, that is
useless, that is the beauty of elegance. If
you need it for some reason, it’s not
elegant. The same works with Luxury
concerning food in France: you should
not eat because you need food. You eat
for pleasure. You should not drink wine
because you are thirsty – if you are
thirsty, drink water. Wine is for the
pleasure.
American culture is very opposite. It
has to have a purpose. The notions here
are very different. By the way, there are
a lot of similarities between Luxury in
“The future of Luxury is going to be
HAND, which is not “made in France”
or “made in China”. It is not even
Luxury anymore but the passion of an
artist, an craftsman that is going to
do something by hand, very carefully
and tailor made.”
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France and in China. The Chinese
aristocracy and the Chinese Emperor
have a sense of Beauty and they think it
is very pure, not a mundane purpose.
What we discovered recently for
several clients is that there is a global
Code for Luxury, which is very
interesting. And this Code is one very
simple word that leads us to understand
Luxury worldwide – and that is the
beauty of this work that we do. What is
this word? HAND. The future of
Luxury is going to be HAND, which is
not “made in France” or “made in
China”. It is made BY HAND, bespoke. It is not even Luxury anymore but the
passion of an artist, an craftsman
(artisan) that is going to do something by
hand, very carefully and tailor made.
Hermès is a very good example of a
company that is very successful
worldwide and they don’t even use the
word Luxury! I spoke to them recently
in Paris and they said “We are not really
into Luxury, we are into craftsmanship.”, back to almost medieval
times where we have the craftsman who
loves le travail, who has to work very
hard before he became a maître, a
master in his art and craftmanship. So,
things done by hand: amazing!
The new Rolls Royce, for example: all
the leather inside is done by hand and
very carefully, and, sous mesure, tailor
made. A very big issue. Some brands
cannot do it completely, but they can
offer an element of that. The Mini
Cooper, for example: you can choose
and pick up something special just for
you, you can put a British flag on the
roof, for example.
5
So this is the direction of Luxury.
Mass production is not going to be
Luxury, no way. Only things done by
hand and unique.
I’ve just bought a Hermès sofa in
France and they told me “You have to
pay upfront and there is a 6 months
d e l ay. Yo u h ave t o w a i t fo r 6
months.”. Because it takes time to create
Luxury. So once in a while I can go and
see the progress of my sofa: 3 people are
working hard on it, doing it by hand,
they test a piece of leather, try
another… it is an art! They are artists.
In French, “craftsman” (artisan) and
“artist” are almost the same word. I like
it very much because it gives a lot of
value to the talent of some people and
their passion, to the dedication and
commitment they have to do a good job.
So I think that mass production is not
interesting anymore. On the other
hand, the price of mass production is
going down all the time, while the price
of Luxury is going up without limits.
Now you have a Bugatti car that costs
2.5 million dollars, so where is the limit?
This is very special, very unique.
Fer nando Luzio. Concer ning
individuals, can we be discovered? Do I
have a Personal Code? Do you know
your Personal Code?
Dr. Rapaille. Oh yes, of course, this
is fascinating because when I worked
with children, there was a very key
element: at the beginning, when babies
are together and one baby cries, the
others start to cry because they don’t see
the difference between one baby and
the others. Then after a certain time
there is a moment in the child’s
evolution when he says “No” for the
first time, and then he says “I”, “I want
that”, “I don’t want that”.
This first discovery of your identity is
quite amazing, so if you have different
brothers and sisters, or if you are alone,
all that system at a certain time creates
your identity, and at that moment you
start to have the imprint of your Code.
And after that, there is repetition and
reinforcement and then your environment and your parents reinforce your
ideas, which can be negative, of course
in case of neurotic people: “Hey, you
will never be able to do anything, you
are a bad boy!”. But, if you get
reinforcement into another direction, it
is very interesting, and you start to be
confident.
So it takes time to discover your
Personal Code, of course, but it is very
important to understand it, and if you
know your Code you might not make a
mistake in choosing your job. You will
find a job that is on code with you.
Maybe you choose the best place for
you to live in the world, and all these
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should help to reinforce your own Code.
The big problem for many individuals is
that they get confused, they want to do
this and that also, and the result of this
confusion is procrastination – they don’t
do anything and they don’t succeed.
Napoleon knew exactly what he was,
of course that it could be dangerous
sometimes (laughs), but he knew his
Code and people said “You are crazy,
who do you think you are?!”, “Well, I
am the Emperor.” And when he was
imprisoned in his island by the British,
one of the big, big sufferings that he had
at that time was that the British refused
to call him “The Emperor”.
So yes, it is very important to discover
and know your Code and then start
managing your life in some ways to be
on code with it.
And your question about “Do you
know your Code?”, yes, of course I
know my Code very much. I have
several models in my life, and my number one model is Champollion. He was
a young guy that went to Egypt with
Napoleon, and he did something that I
do every day: he looked at the
hieroglyphs that had been there for 400
to 500 years (I don’t remember exactly)
and nobody was able to understand
what was written there. He was the first
one to be able to decode – to find the
code, and then to start reading things
that were there, but nobody could see it.
And that is my life: to look at a thing
that nobody can understand and decode
it. And suddenly, wow, everything makes
sense.
My name is Clotaire and it is very
similar to Voltaire, and Voltaire for me
is another model. What I like about him
is his ability to be a philosopher, an
artist, a poet, a scientist and at the same
time a good businessman. He was a very
good businessman! So my Code is
Voltaire with a little bit of Champollion
and a little bit of Alexis de Tocqueville
and so on.
In a final word, my Code is FRENCH
18th CENTURY. I love everything about
the 18th century – I don’t like the way it
ended because the French Revolution
was a disaster, it killed people for no
reason – and from 1715 (at the death of
Louis XIV) to 1789 that is where you
have the most fantastic people: you have
Montesquieu, Voltaire and Mozart – for
me the best music and I love Mozart.
The 18th century is l’art de vivre,
elegance, style, beauty, a pleasure of life
and the main purpose of the French
culture at that time – I know it is kind of
superficial in a way – was elegance and
pleasure. That was fantastic, so that is
my century and I am sure that in a
former life I was a philosopher over
there.
Fernando Luzio. I’ve always seen a
strong connection between Strategy and
the Culture Code.
We define Strategy as the set of
choices and trade-offs a company does
in order to achieve a perception of
Singularity in the customer’s mind,
raising its willingness to pay and
creating economic value. Today, in the
business environment in any place in the
world, it’s not a battle of products
anymore; it is a fierce competition of
business models. That’s why companies
have been developing capabilities in
challenging their strategy, to what we
call “Business Model Innovation”. It
starts with a deep understanding of the
customer’s concerns, aspirations and
behavior. By doing so, we can challenge
the company’s value proposition, also
design more convenient ways to reach
customers (channels), and more appropriate customer relationships – some of
the building blocks of the strategy.
How can we use an archetype discovery to reveal a better picture of
customer needs and, therefore, produce
powerful insights and bring competitive
advantages to the company?
Dr. Rapaille. It is crucial to
understand what people really want, but
at the same time we cannot believe what
they say. So obviously we cannot just ask
them about what they are not aware of.
So, any corporation today has to
understand the unspoken, the unconscious and the unaddressed need of the
customer – what do they want that they
are not even aware of ? And if you want
to be ahead of the competition you
need to be the first one to discover what
they really want. And this is what we do.
Let me give you an example. You
have worked with me at Boeing, one of
my clients. One day they told me “We
will design airplanes, we have to
compete against the European Airbus
and to be ahead of it, and we want to
know what people really want in an
airplane.”.
So during the Archetype Discovery
process we discovered that they have no
idea of what people want because they
listened to them, and when you ask
people what do they want in an
airplane, they say “I want leg room,
good food, good entertainment, good
service, all the movies and everything”
and the airplane companies say “Let’s
do it”. The Europeans believed the
customers, so they built the big Airbus
(A380) where you are going to die with
800 people, for God’s sake!
What we discovered was that this is
not what they want. When people with
money travel, they always take a private
jet where they have no leg room, no food,
no entertainment and no service and they pay 10
times more for the private jet. Why? Because
when you use a private jet what you get is NO
AIRPORT. What people really want is NO
AIRPORT.
Now, think about the beauty of this discovery
because everybody is building bigger and bigger
airports, but I predicted that what people want is
NO AIRPORT. Why? Because I usually say that
airports have been designed by mentally retarded
engineers! I mean this is the worst place that you
want to go through! All the notion of being able
to arrive with your car next to a private jet in one
step – from the car to the plane – is the ideal
situation. Look at the absurdity of these
corporations and airports, where they keep adding
a step: now you have to take your luggage there,
then you have to go there, then you have to go to
security, then you have to take off your shoes…
each time there is one more step!
That is why we designed the Boeing 787 (the
Dreamliner), which is a big success for Boeing. It’s
an airplane that competes with the Airbus
because, in the case of the big Airbus, if you want
to go from Paris to Detroit, you have to go to a
hub – you have to go to Chicago, change planes,
they lose your luggage, the plane is delayed and all
those things. The Dreamline is the opposite, we
did not suppress completely airports, but LESS
AIRPORT should be the right direction. So the
Airbus only goes through hubs because it needs
lots of space.
The Dreamliner can go from anywhere to
anywhere, nonstop. So when I have to fly
commercial, I say “I want nonstop”, and
sometimes they try to cheat me saying “It’s
direct”, “No, I don’t want direct, I want
nonstop!”. Because they say direct, but you have to
change planes in Sao Paulo (laughs).
Now, let me tell you what is going to happen:
India is very backwards in terms of infrastructure,
and they started investing a lot of money building
big airports. However, they are so big now that
they have to be away from the city. Like Denver
“And if you want
to be ahead of
the competition
you need to be
the first one to
discover what
they really want.
And this is what
we do.”
6
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International Airport, which I call “The Dumbest
International Airport in the World” – it is so far
away from Denver that you have to take a car and
drive for one hour! When we know that what
people want is NO AIRPORT.
So what is technology going to do? We already
have technology for airplanes to take off without
airports, so we don’t need airports. Technology is
now using a technique where you can take off
from the roof of any building; it is solely for
military purposes. Second, we have the technology
to make all airplanes silent – no noise. Of course,
today it costs too much money and we are not
there yet; but remember that at the very beginning
of the car, you needed to have a guy with a flag
and a trumpet in front of the car to go through a
village, and at that time they said “Oh, this will
never be generalized, nobody is going to have cars
everywhere because you need a trumpet and a
flag…”. So it is the same reaction today with
airplanes “We are never going to have planes,
because it costs too much money to develop.”.
And third, we are now developing private jets
for 1.5 million dollars, cheaper than the Bugatti!
Private jets are going to be so cheap that they are
going to be like the taxi. Taxis!
If I want to go from here to Detroit – which is
not too far – I have to take one hour to go from
here to the airport, then I have to arrive two hours
before the flight, then usually the flight is on
average, half an hour to 45 minutes late – this
adds another hour – then I have a 2 hour flight,
then when I arrive there I have to wait for my
luggage and then I need another hour, so that’s
already 9 hours! That is the time that it takes me
to drive there!
When I used to work for GM I went to Detroit
driving because it was better. I can stop when I
want, I can take all the luggage that I want, I’m
not insulted by security guys. But in the future I
will have the plane arriving in the park over here
and taking me there, and a two hour flight will be
a two hour flight.
“...I don’t like this word ‘Sustainability’ because you don’t
want to sustain, you want to improve, you want to
increase, you want to grow. The word ‘Sustain’is like
using the break and stop. Zero growth is not Reptilian,
that’s why Sustainability in terms of slogan and philosophy
has a hard time, because it is almost like giving up the
Reptilian.”
Dr. Rapaille’s residence in
Tuxedo (New York)
Customers don’t calculate time the same way that airlines
do – they give you the time from the departure gate to the
arrival gate. No, my time is from my home to my meeting in
Detroit, that is the real time! So what customers want? They
want the time of travel to be the real time, they don’t want to
lose all this time in-between and this is what is going to be
successful in the future. We can already see, for example, the
people that manufacture small private jets making a fortune.
And you are going to tell me “Oh, but this is only for a
minority, a small group of people.”. Yes, like cars in the
beginning of the 20th century were just for a minority…
I predicted that in the future all these crazy airports that
they are building in India and China are going to be like a
museum of the past because nobody is going there, they
won’t need them. What happened to horses and carriages is
going to happen to airports! Again and again, what people
want is NO AIRPORT, this is it. Big airport with more traffic
jam is not the purpose!
So this is the evolution, but in order to forecast and to
predict the future we have to understand this.
Fernando Luzio. Many traditional Business Models, such
as the media, publishing, automobile, energy industries and
others, are being challenged and threatened by disrupting
technologies and other social phenomena.
In your opinion, for example, the physical book will
disappear in the coming years? How can the Archetype
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Discovery process help these industries redesign their
Business Models and readapt?
Dr. Rapaille. It is very interesting because I have been
contacted by Penguin in London, we have been working
together and they want to understand the Code for books.
What is a book? Why do we need a book? I usually say that
the Reptilian always wins and a book is something that you
can touch and feel and carry, it has a weight, it has a sound
when you move it around, there is a sensitive relationship
with the book. You don’t have that with an e-book, you don’t
have that with an iPad. So there is a dimension in the book
that you don’t have in other devices.
Besides that, we have done a lot of work on Internet and
technology and found that you lose so much time on these
things! If I take a book and go to page 190, and if you have
an iPad – I will reach page 190 before you. So you have to
lose time to save time. And I don’t lose time when I want to
go through my book.
We have done a lot of work on Creativity. Our brain is very
sensitive to the environment, to things that are over there but
we don’t pay attention conscientiously. We are influenced by
this environment. When I am in my library and I have all my
books over there, I know exactly where they are and I like to
touch them, so there is a stimulation of the mind. With
depth, the reality of the electronic world is that it is very
superficial, it is quick and fast but superficial – you will never
go in-depth.
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It’s quite interesting to see that “Encyclopedia Britannica”
is now on the Internet. Some people have it on the Internet
but they want to see it in book form, so the big mortal
mistake is to think that the electronic model is going to
replace it.
And in terms of the Reptilian brain: you might be able to
see your children on Skype, they can speak with you, but is it
going to replace hugging them, kissing them, touching them,
eating with them? It is never going to replace that. This is
it! It’s very simple.
And it’s quite amazing to see the evolution of Luxury right
now in different places like California and Europe, where you
have hotels where there is no electricity at all. You are not
allowed to have your cell phone or any computer, and there is
no electricity, only candles, fire in the fire-place and books.
And you pay 1.000 dollars a night, just to have the privilege
of not being disturbed by “pim-pom-bin-bon”. Suddenly you
see the need for the real thing.
After a while you need meditation, you need time to think,
you need to have time to be with your children and to do
simple things, you need to touch people. That is why the
book is going to be handmade – and by the way, I published
a special anniversary edition of my book “The Culture
Code” it is signed, each book has a number, and at the end
there is an imprint of my hand. The symbol of Luxury: a
hand-made book!
Again, that is the evolution. We try to create pocket books
that have no value, but at the same time there is this leatherbound book that is very beautiful. And it is more than the
content alone. I say “the structure is the message”, so when I
like to touch the book it’s already a message for me. I don’t
have this feeling with things on the Internet.
But, when I want to do some research for writing my next
book it’s good to have access to the Internet and all the
reference system that I want, but it doesn’t change the fact
that I know where my books are and that they are like friends
in my life. There is a saying in French culture and I think it
works in English also: “A house without books is like a man
without a soul”. So I don’t think the electronic soul will
replace it. Fernando Luzio. As you have already mentioned,
Sustainability is “the new moral” of contemporary companies. We are witnessing the challenges many companies face
in order to educate and align their stakeholders with the
desired sustainable mindset and attitudes. How can we
imprint sustainability in the corporate culture of modern
organization?
Dr. Rapaille. First of all, I don’t like this word “Sustainability” because you don’t want to sustain, you want to
improve, you want to increase, you want to grow. The word
“Sustain” is like using the break and stop. Zero growth is not
Reptilian, that’s why Sustainability in terms of slogan and
philosophy has a hard time, because it is almost like giving up
the Reptilian.
On the other hand, it is ridiculous to kill your customer. If
you kill your customer there is no customer anymore. You
don’t want to cheat your customer, you don’t want to take
advantage of them, you don’t want to take advantage of the
environment, and you don’t want to kill the environment.
Why? Because then, after that, it will be you next.
So for the Reptilian mind you should create harmonious
relationships of growth, not just to sustain, but growth and
change. One thing that we know for sure is that change is not
going to change, the world is changing all the time and to me
sustainability means that you are able to anticipate the
changes and to be in harmony with the changes. I like better
the word harmony than sustain – a kind of repressing. I like
movement, I like growth, I like innovation, I like progress.
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So for me, what is interesting is the notion of harmony in
the long-term and reciprocal growth. The notion of
reciprocity is very Chinese. When we did the Code for China,
the Chinese didn’t like Americans because Americans just use
them to make a sale and the Chinese don’t. For the Chinese
to respect you, you have to ask for reciprocity.
Sustainability, in the long-term, means that I take care of
you and you take care of me. This is reciprocity and it is very
much part of Confucius’s approach: we should take care of
each other because it is an inter-relationship; we need each
other, so why do I want to win if you lose? It is not just winwin, it is more, it is permanent growth, and this should be the
same concerning the environment and the Planet.
And what is very important today is what we call
anthropocentrism: for the first time humans are changing the
Planet and we are not paying attention to this fact.
As Buckminster Fuller said, “The Planet Earth is a
spaceship that has no pilot”. I think that more than just
protecting the Planet, we need a pilot; we need someone that
can say “This the way we want this Planet to grow and this is
how we are going to do that.”.
Fernando Luzio. Strategy is closely related to human
behavior, because in order to support the strategy execution,
people must change the way they usually work. At the same
time that people want change, they resist to change. Why?
Do you believe that people can really change? How can the
Archetype Discovery process help companies with Change
Management?
Dr. Rapaille. This is a very fascinating subject. My first
reaction is: yes, people can change. But it is very difficult; it is
sometimes a lot easier to get somebody else. The joke is
“Don’t change people, change people” – which means get
somebody else because it is lots faster.
Why is it so difficult to change? Because usually we want
people to change when it’s too late already and by the time
we arrive at the decision that we want change, we are already
too late.
Going back to my experience with learning to speak and
learning languages – I speak English with an accent because I
learned English too late. Yet, my son Dorian speaks French,
English and Spanish with no accent because he learned these
three languages before he was five. So when you learn
something at a very early age it is imprinted in your mind
and it is very difficult to change.
My taste for cheese is a very French. I’ve tried American
cheese, but I am not going to change and I don’t want to
change because I like French cheese. There are some
elements that you feel comfort with; there is a zone in
everybody’s mind and unconscious where we are comfortable
with and we don’t want to change that.
So changing individuals is possible but it is very difficult.
What you can do is to find tensions in everybody. There are
always tensions in us: we love and hate, there are things that
we like and things that we don’t like, and we can move on this
axis, we can be a little bit more of this or a little bit more of
that. For example, I was born in France and I have many
imprints coming from the French culture, but during the war
I had my first imprint of Americans: their tanks and the
German running away. Immediately I imprinted that all
Americans are winners, are the strong guys and I wanted to
be one of them. After that I went to see Gary Cooper, John
Wayne, Burt Lancaster, and all the American movies and I
identified with them. So I have some imprints on both sides –
French and American.
Now, do I want to change? Well, if I want to change in the
sense that I want to work harder, I go to my American side;
9
if I want to enjoy more luxury and
pleasure, I go to my French side. So I
am not really changing, I am moving
into an axis that I have.
And one way to make people change
is to discover these axes that they have
in their Code and help them to move
more in one way or another. So you
don’t change the axis, you don’t
imprint anymore because it is too late
when you are 30, 40. What you can do
is to discover these axes and the
directions that you might want to
follow; discover the elements that are
already there, make them conscious
and push yourself in the direction that
you want. Then, of course you will do
it. But if someone tries to impose
something from outside, you will not
move.
And corporations, can they change?
Yes, they can change faster than
government and politicians because
there is a vote everyday: you either sell
or you don’t sell your product. And a
successful way to make people change
in a corporation is what I call “short
feedback”: they should know immediately
the results of their actions. The problem
is that we delay the feedback and the
reward – try to train a horse by giving it
feedback once a year: you are never
going to train the horse; you need to do
it right away.
I worked for MBNA Credit Card and
I told them that when people are trying
to sell, they should have a goal, for
example: we want to sell 200.000 new
Credit Cards today for the whole group.
Then the numbers should be posted on
a sing on top, showing how much we
did today – 185.000, 190.000… – so
then, they could see it immediately and
get the results.
When you give employees a bonus at
the end of the year, they have no
immediate incentive. So I think that
technology today makes it possible for
people to really have a short feedback
and adjust their behavior according to
what they are doing right or wrong by
seeing it right away. We don’t use that
technology, we use bureaucracy, we
delay, so everything is wrong.
Another example: 100.000 people die
every year in America because of
malpractices and mistakes in hospitals!
Twice more than during the Vietnam
War! How can we change that? Well,
there is no signal showing what
physicians are doing. There is no
measure and no feedback about the way
they dispose all the waste; about the way
that they go from one patient to another
without washing their hands. So if you
start putting signals each time a
physician washes his hands, they will be
able to see by a visual curve that they
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“The key element for a
culture to be successful in
the future is whether they will
have a contribution to make
to the Planet. (...) What can
Brazilians bring to the world?
A feminine culture, the
woman’s side and the notion
of ‘mulher guerreira’ (warrior
woman).”
“I am completely convinced that
global leaders in the future are
going to be women and we need
to start thinking like a woman.”
have improved. How many people put
waste in the right box? They would
visualize and they would want to do
better tomorrow. People want to do
good. To show them they are doing
better today than yesterday is a reward.
It is simple. But if you don’t show them,
they don’t know, so how can they
change?
Fernando Luzio. You have broken
the Code of many different cultures.
What is your perception about the
strengths and weaknesses of Brazilian
culture and how do they affect the
competitiveness in our way of doing
business in a global world?
Dr. Rapaille. The cliché is “Brazil is
the country of the future” and it has
been the country of the future for what,
100 years? It seems that the future is
never arriving (laughs), but I think it is
arriving.
I went to Brazil for the first time in
1969 to study the Indians in Xingu (I
was part of the Museu do Índio) and
since then, I have been watching the
evolution of your countr y. My
perception is that the potential is
absolutely incredible.
The key element for a culture to be
successful in the future is whether they
will have a contribution to make to the
Planet. That’s it: what is your
contribution?
Like it or not, the only thing that the
French culture can bring to the rest of
the world is Luxury. This is the only
thing they can do: Cartier, Van Cleef,
Champagne.
What can Brazilians bring to the
world? A feminine culture, the woman’s
side and the notion of “mulher
guerreira” (warrior woman), which
means that I am going to work hard
every day to improve the life condition
of my family; I know that life is difficult,
I know that I don’t have all the money
that I need, but I don’t give up, I work a
little bit more every day. So this
persistence combined with a certain
realism and optimism at the same time;
paired with this consistency of hard
work, in improving, this is something
very strong.
I am completely convinced that global
leaders in the future are going to be
women and we need to start thinking
like a woman. I am doing some work
right now on high education around the
world and in most of the business
schools there are no classes on how to
think like a woman. Big mistake! Why?
Because we only think like a man and
we don’t understand that women think
differently. What is the big difference?
This is how men make a definition: not
this, cut it off; not this, cut it off. Eliminate,
eliminate and that is it. Now we have a
definition. That is hard data; we have
done work around the world to find out
about this.
Yet, women make definitions by
inclusion: this is it also; and this is it also;
and this is it also… And what is very
difficult for men to accept is that it
never finishes, it is never done. You can
keep adding and adding.
Brazil is a very feminine culture and
we can learn about this inclusive
dimension. I remember I had a feijoada
with you one day, and one thing that I
learned about feijoada is that you can
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always add some water if there are more people coming and
they are always welcome. It is not exclusive, it is inclusive. The
same is true concerning people’s race. I remember this
beautiful woman: she was part Japanese, part African, part
Swiss, she had all this mix and wow, the result was fantastic!
Right now in Europe there is a very big danger: we see
racism and fascism coming back. This is not part of the
Brazilian mindset; it is more inclusive, more open. I think it is
fine that you have a woman leader, and even Lula was more
feminine.
So that is one of the things that I find very good in the
Brazilian culture; this inclusiveness is the contribution that
Brazil can bring to the world.
Fernando Luzio. You mentioned your worry about the
Europe. As an Archetypologist, how can Americans and
Europeans explore the power of their Culture Codes in order
to overcome the crisis and turnaround?
Dr. Rapaille. The crisis that we have today is a result of
the dominance of the Cortex. Americans have been very
good for many years and centuries because we are not too
Cortex. The cliché is that America has a bias for action, so
let’s do it – you don’t know what you are going to do, but you
do it.
Europeans are the opposite, they want to think, to
organize, so the result is more laws, regulation, slowing down
the process. And the problem with the new administration of
Obama in America is that they are very much European in
the way of thinking, so they create more laws, more
regulations, they slow down the process, they want to create a
big government. They should look at France where 65% of
the budget is the government. Everybody is leaving there,
nobody wants to create anymore.
France has a deficit of 100 billion Euros, when the German
make 200 billion surpluses. What is the big difference
between the two? Well, the French dudes don’t want to work;
they want the state to take care of everything. The idea to put
Germans and Greeks in same box is absurd. It is never going
to work; it is like trying to give the same rules to giraffes and
elephants. No way!
So Europeans have to understand and accept that these
cultures are different and before they become one big culture
– which is going to take centuries – they have to move to
another structure, a structure which respects cultural
differences. The British understand that very well, they
always felt that they were different. They still have the pound,
not the euro.
And for me a good example is Switzerland. Switzerland is a
great country, they are very successful. They have 4 official
languages and every subculture is respected. So you can
create something like that, of course it is possible.
The problem with America is more serious, because it is
not an issue between Republicans and Democrats. The
problem is the politicians and not if they are Democrats or
Republicans. The big government that we have was created
by Republicans. The crazy politicians, in order to be
reelected have to spend, spend, spend and so on. So that is a
big issue and if it keeps going like that we are going to
become like France. We have already one of the biggest
deficits in the world and we are going to have more
regulations.
So what Americans and Europeans should do? They
should try to copy countries that are successful, what we call
best practices in government. We do that in manufacturing,
why don’t we do that in governments?
And the number one example for me is Singapore. I wrote
an article and said: “Monsieur Hollande (the new French
President) should work as an interne in Singapore to learn
from these guys over there.”. Singapore’s model is unique and
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very successful. They have 2% unemployment, Spain has
25%! So obviously, Spain should learn something from them.
Why are they so successful? Because it has Reptilian
principles. First of all they have no gas, no oil, no land, no
natural resources, they have nothing. They are not like those
spoiled little Arabian countries which live on royalties. They
have nothing. So what was the first thing they did? In 1965,
when Malaysia rejected Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, the leader
at that time said “Ok guys, we have no choice. We have to be
better than the others because we have no resources, we are
poor, we have to be the best.”.
And what is the first thing we need to do? Clean: that is a
Reptilian priority. Mothers know that you have to be clean,
the food has to be clean, the children. So we want the house
to be clean, the street to be clean, we want the food to be
clean, you need to be clean, your clothes have to be clean.
Clean, clean and that creates a mindset, a first imprint about
discipline, demand and exigencies. The first thing that Lee
Kuan Yew imprinted in people’s minds he did not have to
write it down. It is duties – and one of the biggest polemics in
American culture is that criminals have more rights than
victims.
Then the second one was: you have to work hard. This is
very Chinese, a Confucius dimension that you have to work
and you have to learn. Learn, learn, learn, and never stop
learning. And then there is this notion of respect: respect
your family, respect your father.
Right now there is more average income in Singapore,
something like 70.000 dollars a year. They have more
millionaires over there than anywhere else in the world. With
5 million people and they make 55 billion surplus between
import and export – 1/4 of what Germans do with 80
million people. Can you imagine that?
There is no corruption, and do you know why? Because all
civil servants make an average of 1 million dollars a year. So,
when you are a Director of an Agency you don’t need more
money, you already have 1 million dollars! So it is amazing.
And because they pay civil servants very well they have the
best people wanting to become civil servants, again it is a
virtuous cycle.
And it is a very safe place. I have been there many times
and women can walk safely at night in the street. There is no
graffiti because you go to jail.
I’ve done work in Singapore very much and when I’ve
asked young people in Singapore: “Would they live
somewhere else?” They said: “No. I’d rather be in Singapore,
it is a lot better here”. So young people love it, they appreciate the structure, the security, the safety, transportation is
almost free, the subway is very nice and beautiful and safe.
My next book is called “The Global Code and The Global
Mind” and I say that these global leaders should look at the
best practices around the world. And even if I criticize the
French all the time, French medicine is a lot better than
American medicine, on average.
They get better results twice as much, for 1/3 of the price
per person than they do in America. America is in an estate
of waste, an incredible waste. So they should learn again:
what are the French doing better than Americans in terms of
medicine?
Fernando Luzio. You know about my passion for Japan,
and for me something very provocative is what the country
has been facing.
The Japanese economy experienced a huge expansion after
the Second World War, up until the 90’s, leading some
technology innovations and some of the modern
management practices, such as the Lean Manufacturing from
Toyota, Total Quality Management, Just in Time, and others.
Nowadays, the country has been
facing trouble in overcoming the
disturbing creativity and innovation
blackout, adapting the business model
of their large companies, and losing
space for their Asiatic neighbors. Even
Toyota has recently experienced a
traumatic recall that questioned their
legacy as the Quality icon.
The Japanese movie industry lost
space in the recent years for the up and
coming Korean and Chinese’s films.
How can we help Japanese companies
to readapt and turnaround in order to
recover their relevant role in the global
scenario?
Dr. Rapaille. That is why Japan
needs Brazil, because the Japanese
Code is almost your opposite.
I’ve been studying in Japan since 1964
– when I went to Japan for the first
time. I had a company there for a while
and have done a lot of work in Japan.
Japanese culture is fascinating, it is one
of the most interesting cultures for me
to study and decode. But on the other
hand, their very culture presents a
problem to the Japanese.
And what is the problem? The
Koreans that have been in Japan for
three generations are still Korean, there
is no integration. Japanese “Japanaise”,
it is not like the feijoada where you mix
things. The Japanese mind is about the
purity of the blade, the high density of
the laser, that’s why they are so good
when it comes to quality, and intensity –
they are intense. That is what they want.
For long time they have been better
than everybody else because of that.
Absolutely! But at a certain time this
high-density is just so selfish and so selfcentered, that they forget about the rest
of the planet.
So, Japanese companies have to face
different challenges today. As you know
Korea has been occupied by the
Japanese for more than 30 years. They
were forced to think Japanese, to speak
Japanese, to have Japanese names, and
then, when in 1945 the Japanese left,
Koreans went back to being Korean.
But they have integrated all the good
things such as quality and density. They
are fantastic; they are Italian and
Japanese at the same time. They have
the passion and the excitement of the
Italian and they have the intensity of
the Japanese. The Japanese are not
Italian at all; they have never integrated
the Italian dimension.
So, Japanese companies are still
imperialistic in their minds. They want
to impose Japan. They can’t mix with
the other cultures. So, I see a better
future for Brazil than for Japan,
unfortunately.
Then, aging population is another big
issue. They have a healthy lifestyle in
Japan so they live forever, they never
die, but you have to feed them one way
or another, so you have this work force
in Japan that is shrinking and the aging
population growing.
There are a lot of similarities between
Japan and Germany: same unconscious
structure. When the Japanese needed to
have a bureaucracy, they copied the
German. Today they have the car
industry in common. They were good
soldiers, imperialistic soldiers; they were
allies during the war, so there are a lot
of similarities.
But the German managed to stay
German and reinvent themselves. So
the Japanese again should look at the
Germans and copy the model being
used over there, on how the Germans
are doing, on how come they are
successful there, because this is not off
code with Japan. Both love the systemic
approach, so that is how the Japanese
can grow.
Fernando Luzio. Something that I
find very interesting is that always at the
beginning of an Archetype Discovery
process you start by asking your client
“If I had all the answers, what would
your questions be?”.
Now I really would like to know “If I
had all the answers, what would your
questions be? What are the intriguing
questions in your mind nowadays?
Dr. Rapaille. If you had all the
answers, I think my number one
question would be “Where is the global
leader that could be the pilot for this
Planet?”.
And he or she cannot be a politician –
maybe a king/queen philosopher, a
wizard, a high priest, something like
that. But there is a need for another
Archetype to come and to guide.
Because right now, we are moving in so
many different directions, in part
destroying the Planet, which is bad. So,
that will be my dream, to discover this
structure, beyond politics, beyond
economy, beyond major corporations.
Who will be the best pilot?
“My next book is called ‘The Global
Code and The Global Mind’ and I say
that these global leaders should look
at the best practices around the
world. (...) French medicine is a lot
better than American medicine, on
average. They get better results twice
as much, for 1/3 of the price per
person than they do in America.
America is in an estate of waste, an
incredible waste. So they should
learn again: what are the French
doing better than Americans in terms
of medicine?”
11
www.luzio.com.br
12
Fernando Luzio. To close this
unforgettable interview, if you would
write a letter to our children about
your key learning and recommendations on how to be a better
individual and professional, what
would be your core legacy?
Dr. Rapaille. My mother was a
very special woman and she always
told me one simple message that I
would like to transmit to my 2 sons.
I was kind of crazy when I was
young – I am still crazy today, but a
different crazy: one day while I was
playing music, I said “I want to
become a musician”; another day I
would be painting, and I would say “I
want to become a painter”; “I wanted
to cure children; I want to become a
doctor”, and my mother always told
me “Whatever you decide to do, you are
going to succeed.”.
For me that was one of the best
messages anybody could tell me,
specially my mother, because I thought
“Wow! Maybe she is right, maybe I am
going to do that and I am going to
succeed.”.
So I would like my children to have
this self-confidence. Don’t try to do
what I want you to do. Don’t try to be
what I want you to be. Don’t want to
become what anybody else wants you to
be, but do whatever you want to do and
you are going to succeed. I think that
the wrong idea is to say “Oh, I want my
son to be a doctor or an engineer.”. Forget it! Let them do whatever they
want to do.
So, this is the best legacy that you can
give your children “Whatever you are
going to do, you are going to be
successful in, just trust yourself and do
the best you can”.
Fernando Luzio. Your Archetype
Discovery legacy is fascinating and very
on code with the historical moment that
we are experiencing: globalization,
when the world must learn to recognize,
respect and learn how to deal with the
differences.
Your company has helped to educate
large organizations around the world on
how to understand and value the
differences and to use them in their
favor, not against them.
And all of us, from Luzio Strategy
Consulting are deeply honored and
proud of being part of the ADW’s family and sharing it’s mission. Dr. Rapaille,
thank you very much for your interview.
Dr. Rapaille. It was my pleasure,
thank you.
www.luzio.com.br
Dr. Rapaille on the left; Fernando Luzio on the right
• The video and audio of this interview are available on our website
www.luzio.com.br and iTunes Store
• A PDF of this interview is also
available in Portuguese
NOVOS INTÉRPRETES PROGRAM
Created and Directed by: Fernando Luzio
and Renê Guedes
Interviewer: Fernando Luzio
Editorial Supervision: Patrícia Luzio
Edited and Photographed by: Robson
Crociati and Henrique Pinto
Production: Luzio Strategy Consulting
LUZIO STRATEGY CONSULTING
Website: www.luzio.com.br /
E-mail: [email protected]
Tel: +55 (11) 3045-5651
Rua Afonso Braz, 473 - cj. 43
Vila Nova Conceição - São Paulo - SP
04511-011 Brazil

PDF Rapaille - English

Transcripción

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